0000551: Vehumet no longer needs to give out spellbooks

(0001588)
TGW (reporter)
2010-01-25 17:17

I, for one, would never even consider worshipping Vehumet if he didn't gift books.

(0001589)
dpeg (administrator)
2010-01-25 17:21

I'm sorry, TGW, but that is just nonsense. I heard something similar when I announced that Trog might lose Haste. "Unplayable!", some shouted. Clearly, Vehumet could be arbitrarily strong without book gifts, so your approach is either nostalgic or just silly.

I like Lemuel's idea, I just still don't think that Vehumet is broad enough. So I disagree with his second claim -- a new god caring for all forms of ranged attacks is still better, in my opinion.

(0001590)
Lemuel (updater)
2010-01-25 17:31

Well, you could get rid of the book gifts for now, without settling the long-term question.

Personally, I think you may undervalue how game-changing a simple effect like extra range can be. Gods don't have to complex! -- in fact a mix of simple and complicated god options seems ideal. But again, that doesn't have to be resolved in the context of this FR.

(0001591)
Lemuel (updater)
2010-01-25 17:33

(Also there's the new MP cost-reduction. With that plus extended range, Vehumet with no spellbook gifts would still be substantially better than in earlier versions of DCSS.)

(0001592)
TGW (reporter)
2010-01-25 18:07
edited on: 2010-01-25 18:29

I, for one, have never complained about Trog losing haste. Also, it's more similar to Okawaru losing armour gifts.

EDIT: as in while it may be problematic, it's currently half the use and you're going to mess things up if you remove it for some reason

(0001593)
dpeg (administrator)
2010-01-25 18:12

TGW: I never said you did. Your reaction of "with this change, I won't use it anymore" is very similar, though. And yes, armour gifts are a really bad idea and we will do something about it.

(0001595)
Core Xii (reporter)
2010-01-25 18:40

Preposterous. Guaranteed Iskenderun's Mystic Blast, Poison Arrow, Orb of Destruction and Fire Storm are 99% of the reason why I pick Vehumet at the temple. +1 range and slightly more efficient use of mana are nowhere near good enough on their own (Poison Arrow takes care of range and you can always channel more mana with Sif). I would go back to Sif Muna for at least the remote probability of getting these spells before midgame.

(0001598)
rob (developer)
2010-01-25 19:32

Core Xii's reaction makes me want to nerf Poison Arrow. Cut irresistable damage to 1/4?

(0001604)
Lemuel (updater)
2010-01-25 19:44

Core Xii-

Have you actually played the new Vehumet? The range bonus is not just +1.

(0001605)
doy (developer)
2010-01-25 19:48

Core Xii and TGW's reaction makes me want to nerf poison arrow *and* remove vehumet book gifts. Extended spell range *and* cheaper casting costs *and* wizardry *and* mana on kills is plenty strong, and we can always add more benefits if it turns out not to be. Having every spellcasting god give book gifts is boring.

(0001609)
jpeg (manager)
2010-01-25 21:02

> Having every spellcasting god give book gifts is boring.

That's a good point. Does V. still have the connection to summoning? His current description only mentions the "destructive powers of magic". If not, I guess at least those books could go.

Otherwise, still undecided.

(0001611)
Kyrris (reporter)
2010-01-25 21:56

Yeah, he can definitely stand to ditch the summoning books. He doesn't offer summoners anything but those and the wizardry bonus, anymore, and it doesn't really fit.

(0001616)
Lemuel (updater)
2010-01-25 22:17

Ditching the summoning books would be a good first step, but losing the conjuration books is more important, precisely because V *does* offer so much else for conjurers. I think the DevTeam wants to avoid a simple one playstyle <--> one god mapping, and ensure that every character faces tough tradeoffs in picking a god.

(0001617)
TGW (reporter)
2010-01-25 22:27
edited on: 2010-01-25 22:29

How does making non-conjurers unable to pick up the spells with Vehumet, and then removing the summoner support, discourage a one playstyle, one god mapping?

(0001620)
Lemuel (updater)
2010-01-25 22:48

"How does making non-conjurers unable to pick up the spells with Vehumet, and then removing the summoner support, discourage a one playstyle, one god mapping?"

By making Sif and Vehumet equally attractive, but different, choices for Conjurers, instead of Vehumet offering them one-stop shopping.

By the way, I would also have the range-extension apply to Necromancy spells (if it doesn't already) -- to all spells in fact. And maybe the mana-cost reduction to Necro and Summoning -- anything you can use to hurt someone.

(0001621)
rob (developer)
2010-01-25 23:00

I assumed the mana cost reduction was in for summoning spells already.

(0001623)
TGW (reporter)
2010-01-25 23:20
edited on: 2010-01-26 00:25

Some notable things Vehumet will never give you that Sif Muna will:
Bolt of Fire
Bolt of Cold, basically
Ice Shard
Lightning Bolt
Sticky Flame
Any non-conjuration spells or any benefits to most non-conjuration spells

This combined with the rare spells in Annihilations, a Vehumite will end with a very different spell set from Munites. And the powers are completely different. I have seen 78291 recommend Sif over Veh. EDIT: like for a conjurer

And since when can we not stand it when Sif Muna's Belgium-sized niche is violated?

(0001626)
KiloByte (manager)
2010-01-25 23:49

In 0.5, Sif Muna was the only way to encroach upon Vehumet's exclusivity for Annihilations.
That made demigods and those not scumming her unable to get the big spells.

My proposal is: let's forbid Sif Muna from ever granting spells from Annihilations, so her worshippers would have to actually find that spellbook or even *gasp* burn a scroll of acquirement.
Sif is already the spellcasting Okawaru, and it's her who needs a nerf, not Vehumet.

(0001633)
78291 (developer)
2010-01-26 00:21

Vehumet currently has a unique benefit for summoners in that the mp gain for kills also applies to collateral kills.

(0001635)
sorear (developer)
2010-01-26 00:30

Lemuel: Are you under the impression that randart books can have spells from Annihilations? This is only the case if the books are from Sif Muna. Maybe floor randarts should be able to get the spells if Vehumet gifting is removed.

(0001642)
due (developer)
2010-01-26 01:38

I'm basically for:

* Floor randarts getting Vehumet spells.
* Vehumet's spell book gifts being removed.

All the other changes have served to make Vehumet an interesting god; the only problem, and one that various people have pointed out on IRC, is that you can just pick up a better weapon from the floor if you're a fighter, but the chances of getting a spellbook with some spells that you can use is always a low chance.

I think changing Vehumet so that he isn't "book of Annihilations god" will make him definitely more interesting, but in that same regard, it will also be somewhat of a nerf, because those people playing Vehumet will have to rely on the floor for whatever spells they need.

I'm pretty sure there was a recent FR that discussed Vehumet (or possibly Sif Muna or some other god), where the god had a random chance of offering to teach you a spell. This could be used in an interesting manner, in that he could offer "destructive magics" at certain points, instead of gifting books. Obviously, these would have a guaranteed learning, but probably have a large piety hit. It's not a fully fleshed out idea, but I think it would give him an interesting niche.

Further to this, we could make it that you only have one "god gift" spell slot, and that if he offers to teach you another spell, you have to forget the spell that you've currently got. You can refuse it, and there's always a chance that that spell will come around again (and if you find it in a book, he won't bother to gift it to you), but it would provide for interesting tactics and management of spells.

I waffle.

Either way, if we let floor randarts gift Vehumet-only spells, but keep Vehumet's spell gifts, I reckon that we should reduce the chances of Sif Muna randart books being generated with Vehumet spells. With Sif Muna, you're basically guaranteed to have the relevant Annihilations, etc, spell, after a few gifts, and I think this cheapens Vehumet somewhat. Obviously, only if we keep Vehumet gifts.

(0001657)
Core Xii (reporter)
2010-01-26 08:53

You're not guaranteed to have anything at all with Sif. It's like Okawaru's gifts... sometimes it goes *just right* and you get the executioner's axe of speed you wanted from the beginning. But other times, you get five slings in a row.

Sometimes, starting as a Venom Mage and training conjurations and poison magic, Sif gets the hint and gifts you Poison Arrow (which is my #1 spell in the entire game). But other times, you get a whole bunch of miscellaneous books because Sif thinks you should branch out.

Given an infinite amount of time, say, farming Pandemonium, sure, eventually you get the spells you want. But by then it's too late, you would've needed them ages ago.

Introducing added randomness may be a good thing in that it imposes less certainty and more variation. On the downside, it has the potential to completely screw you over with a string of - fully pseudorandom - but highly unlucky rolls.

(0001666)
dpeg (administrator)
2010-01-26 12:04

Core Xii: in contrast to Okawaru, book making (Sif or wish) does take into account what you already have found.

No changes for 0.6 I say. Note that Sif will see changes, too. Personally, I think that Selective Amnesia is awful as a spell.

(0001789)
evktalo (administrator)
2010-01-28 09:19

Just making a note that mana reduction is (and was) in place for Summoning spells as well. grep vehumet_supports_spell.

--Eino

(0001801)
minmay (reporter)
2010-01-28 15:54

What about nerfing the spells/books themselves rather than the gods giving them out? Poison Arrow, if I recall correctly, does much more damage than Bolt of Iron against non-resistant monsters, and only slightly less against resistant monsters - all while having better to-hit, longer range and unresistable poison.

Hopefully, that would make the gods (and conjurers in general) more interesting without pushing Sif Muna over Vehumet.

(0001813)
dpeg (administrator)
2010-01-28 19:36

minmay: Poison Arrow has been recently nerfed.

But the book gifts are very problematic. We will look into this at some point.

(0004797)
rob (developer)
2010-05-14 18:45

I've linked to this from the wiki at https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:god:vehumet [^] since this does not seem to have come to a conclusion.

Notes
(0001588) TGW (reporter) 2010-01-25 17:17	I, for one, would never even consider worshipping Vehumet if he didn't gift books.

(0001589) dpeg (administrator) 2010-01-25 17:21	I'm sorry, TGW, but that is just nonsense. I heard something similar when I announced that Trog might lose Haste. "Unplayable!", some shouted. Clearly, Vehumet could be arbitrarily strong without book gifts, so your approach is either nostalgic or just silly. I like Lemuel's idea, I just still don't think that Vehumet is broad enough. So I disagree with his second claim -- a new god caring for all forms of ranged attacks is still better, in my opinion.

(0001590) Lemuel (updater) 2010-01-25 17:31	Well, you could get rid of the book gifts for now, without settling the long-term question. Personally, I think you may undervalue how game-changing a simple effect like extra range can be. Gods don't have to complex! -- in fact a mix of simple and complicated god options seems ideal. But again, that doesn't have to be resolved in the context of this FR.

(0001591) Lemuel (updater) 2010-01-25 17:33	(Also there's the new MP cost-reduction. With that plus extended range, Vehumet with no spellbook gifts would still be substantially better than in earlier versions of DCSS.)

(0001592) TGW (reporter) 2010-01-25 18:07 edited on: 2010-01-25 18:29	I, for one, have never complained about Trog losing haste. Also, it's more similar to Okawaru losing armour gifts. EDIT: as in while it may be problematic, it's currently half the use and you're going to mess things up if you remove it for some reason

(0001593) dpeg (administrator) 2010-01-25 18:12	TGW: I never said you did. Your reaction of "with this change, I won't use it anymore" is very similar, though. And yes, armour gifts are a really bad idea and we will do something about it.

(0001595) Core Xii (reporter) 2010-01-25 18:40	Preposterous. Guaranteed Iskenderun's Mystic Blast, Poison Arrow, Orb of Destruction and Fire Storm are 99% of the reason why I pick Vehumet at the temple. +1 range and slightly more efficient use of mana are nowhere near good enough on their own (Poison Arrow takes care of range and you can always channel more mana with Sif). I would go back to Sif Muna for at least the remote probability of getting these spells before midgame.

(0001598) rob (developer) 2010-01-25 19:32	Core Xii's reaction makes me want to nerf Poison Arrow. Cut irresistable damage to 1/4?

(0001604) Lemuel (updater) 2010-01-25 19:44	Core Xii- Have you actually played the new Vehumet? The range bonus is not just +1.

(0001605) doy (developer) 2010-01-25 19:48	Core Xii and TGW's reaction makes me want to nerf poison arrow and remove vehumet book gifts. Extended spell range and cheaper casting costs and wizardry and mana on kills is plenty strong, and we can always add more benefits if it turns out not to be. Having every spellcasting god give book gifts is boring.

(0001609) jpeg (manager) 2010-01-25 21:02	> Having every spellcasting god give book gifts is boring. That's a good point. Does V. still have the connection to summoning? His current description only mentions the "destructive powers of magic". If not, I guess at least those books could go. Otherwise, still undecided.

(0001611) Kyrris (reporter) 2010-01-25 21:56	Yeah, he can definitely stand to ditch the summoning books. He doesn't offer summoners anything but those and the wizardry bonus, anymore, and it doesn't really fit.

(0001616) Lemuel (updater) 2010-01-25 22:17	Ditching the summoning books would be a good first step, but losing the conjuration books is more important, precisely because V does offer so much else for conjurers. I think the DevTeam wants to avoid a simple one playstyle <--> one god mapping, and ensure that every character faces tough tradeoffs in picking a god.

(0001617) TGW (reporter) 2010-01-25 22:27 edited on: 2010-01-25 22:29	How does making non-conjurers unable to pick up the spells with Vehumet, and then removing the summoner support, discourage a one playstyle, one god mapping?

(0001620) Lemuel (updater) 2010-01-25 22:48	"How does making non-conjurers unable to pick up the spells with Vehumet, and then removing the summoner support, discourage a one playstyle, one god mapping?" By making Sif and Vehumet equally attractive, but different, choices for Conjurers, instead of Vehumet offering them one-stop shopping. By the way, I would also have the range-extension apply to Necromancy spells (if it doesn't already) -- to all spells in fact. And maybe the mana-cost reduction to Necro and Summoning -- anything you can use to hurt someone.

(0001621) rob (developer) 2010-01-25 23:00	I assumed the mana cost reduction was in for summoning spells already.

(0001623) TGW (reporter) 2010-01-25 23:20 edited on: 2010-01-26 00:25	Some notable things Vehumet will never give you that Sif Muna will: Bolt of Fire Bolt of Cold, basically Ice Shard Lightning Bolt Sticky Flame Any non-conjuration spells or any benefits to most non-conjuration spells This combined with the rare spells in Annihilations, a Vehumite will end with a very different spell set from Munites. And the powers are completely different. I have seen 78291 recommend Sif over Veh. EDIT: like for a conjurer And since when can we not stand it when Sif Muna's Belgium-sized niche is violated?

(0001626) KiloByte (manager) 2010-01-25 23:49	In 0.5, Sif Muna was the only way to encroach upon Vehumet's exclusivity for Annihilations. That made demigods and those not scumming her unable to get the big spells. My proposal is: let's forbid Sif Muna from ever granting spells from Annihilations, so her worshippers would have to actually find that spellbook or even gasp burn a scroll of acquirement. Sif is already the spellcasting Okawaru, and it's her who needs a nerf, not Vehumet.

(0001633) 78291 (developer) 2010-01-26 00:21	Vehumet currently has a unique benefit for summoners in that the mp gain for kills also applies to collateral kills.

(0001635) sorear (developer) 2010-01-26 00:30	Lemuel: Are you under the impression that randart books can have spells from Annihilations? This is only the case if the books are from Sif Muna. Maybe floor randarts should be able to get the spells if Vehumet gifting is removed.

(0001642) due (developer) 2010-01-26 01:38	I'm basically for: * Floor randarts getting Vehumet spells. * Vehumet's spell book gifts being removed. All the other changes have served to make Vehumet an interesting god; the only problem, and one that various people have pointed out on IRC, is that you can just pick up a better weapon from the floor if you're a fighter, but the chances of getting a spellbook with some spells that you can use is always a low chance. I think changing Vehumet so that he isn't "book of Annihilations god" will make him definitely more interesting, but in that same regard, it will also be somewhat of a nerf, because those people playing Vehumet will have to rely on the floor for whatever spells they need. I'm pretty sure there was a recent FR that discussed Vehumet (or possibly Sif Muna or some other god), where the god had a random chance of offering to teach you a spell. This could be used in an interesting manner, in that he could offer "destructive magics" at certain points, instead of gifting books. Obviously, these would have a guaranteed learning, but probably have a large piety hit. It's not a fully fleshed out idea, but I think it would give him an interesting niche. Further to this, we could make it that you only have one "god gift" spell slot, and that if he offers to teach you another spell, you have to forget the spell that you've currently got. You can refuse it, and there's always a chance that that spell will come around again (and if you find it in a book, he won't bother to gift it to you), but it would provide for interesting tactics and management of spells. I waffle. Either way, if we let floor randarts gift Vehumet-only spells, but keep Vehumet's spell gifts, I reckon that we should reduce the chances of Sif Muna randart books being generated with Vehumet spells. With Sif Muna, you're basically guaranteed to have the relevant Annihilations, etc, spell, after a few gifts, and I think this cheapens Vehumet somewhat. Obviously, only if we keep Vehumet gifts.

(0001657) Core Xii (reporter) 2010-01-26 08:53	You're not guaranteed to have anything at all with Sif. It's like Okawaru's gifts... sometimes it goes just right and you get the executioner's axe of speed you wanted from the beginning. But other times, you get five slings in a row. Sometimes, starting as a Venom Mage and training conjurations and poison magic, Sif gets the hint and gifts you Poison Arrow (which is my #1 spell in the entire game). But other times, you get a whole bunch of miscellaneous books because Sif thinks you should branch out. Given an infinite amount of time, say, farming Pandemonium, sure, eventually you get the spells you want. But by then it's too late, you would've needed them ages ago. Introducing added randomness may be a good thing in that it imposes less certainty and more variation. On the downside, it has the potential to completely screw you over with a string of - fully pseudorandom - but highly unlucky rolls.

(0001666) dpeg (administrator) 2010-01-26 12:04	Core Xii: in contrast to Okawaru, book making (Sif or wish) does take into account what you already have found. No changes for 0.6 I say. Note that Sif will see changes, too. Personally, I think that Selective Amnesia is awful as a spell.

(0001789) evktalo (administrator) 2010-01-28 09:19	Just making a note that mana reduction is (and was) in place for Summoning spells as well. grep vehumet_supports_spell. --Eino

(0001801) minmay (reporter) 2010-01-28 15:54	What about nerfing the spells/books themselves rather than the gods giving them out? Poison Arrow, if I recall correctly, does much more damage than Bolt of Iron against non-resistant monsters, and only slightly less against resistant monsters - all while having better to-hit, longer range and unresistable poison. Hopefully, that would make the gods (and conjurers in general) more interesting without pushing Sif Muna over Vehumet.

(0001813) dpeg (administrator) 2010-01-28 19:36	minmay: Poison Arrow has been recently nerfed. But the book gifts are very problematic. We will look into this at some point.

(0004797) rob (developer) 2010-05-14 18:45	I've linked to this from the wiki at https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:god:vehumet [^] since this does not seem to have come to a conclusion.

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2010-01-25 16:46	Lemuel	New Issue
2010-01-25 17:17	TGW	Note Added: 0001588
2010-01-25 17:21	dpeg	Note Added: 0001589
2010-01-25 17:31	Lemuel	Note Added: 0001590
2010-01-25 17:33	Lemuel	Note Added: 0001591
2010-01-25 18:07	TGW	Note Added: 0001592
2010-01-25 18:12	dpeg	Note Added: 0001593
2010-01-25 18:29	TGW	Note Edited: 0001592
2010-01-25 18:40	Core Xii	Note Added: 0001595
2010-01-25 19:32	rob	Note Added: 0001598
2010-01-25 19:44	Lemuel	Note Added: 0001604
2010-01-25 19:48	doy	Note Added: 0001605
2010-01-25 21:02	jpeg	Note Added: 0001609
2010-01-25 21:56	Kyrris	Note Added: 0001611
2010-01-25 22:17	Lemuel	Note Added: 0001616
2010-01-25 22:27	TGW	Note Added: 0001617
2010-01-25 22:29	TGW	Note Edited: 0001617
2010-01-25 22:48	Lemuel	Note Added: 0001620
2010-01-25 23:00	rob	Note Added: 0001621
2010-01-25 23:20	TGW	Note Added: 0001623
2010-01-25 23:20	TGW	Note Edited: 0001623
2010-01-25 23:20	TGW	Note Edited: 0001623
2010-01-25 23:23	TGW	Note Edited: 0001623
2010-01-25 23:49	KiloByte	Note Added: 0001626
2010-01-26 00:21	78291	Note Added: 0001633
2010-01-26 00:25	TGW	Note Edited: 0001623
2010-01-26 00:30	sorear	Note Added: 0001635
2010-01-26 01:38	due	Note Added: 0001642
2010-01-26 08:53	Core Xii	Note Added: 0001657
2010-01-26 12:04	dpeg	Note Added: 0001666
2010-01-28 09:19	evktalo	Note Added: 0001789
2010-01-28 15:54	minmay	Note Added: 0001801
2010-01-28 19:36	dpeg	Note Added: 0001813
2010-05-14 18:45	rob	Note Added: 0004797
2010-05-14 18:45	rob	Status	new => resolved
2010-05-14 18:45	rob	Fixed in Branch	=> 0.7 development branch
2010-05-14 18:45	rob	Resolution	open => suspended
2010-05-14 18:45	rob	Assigned To	=> rob

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