0004981: club/short staff confusion - Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup Tracker

Notes
(0016045) KiloByte (manager) 2011-11-30 00:16	Wikipedia's article has "Shillelagh (club)" in its very title, and it's even a bit more mace-y than a truncheon or a baton. We also moved rods to M&F specifically because they're short. This makes new short staves pretty dubious. Not sure how to solve that but this report is damn valid.

(0016046) KiloByte (manager) 2011-11-30 00:51	Analyzing our current tiles: * one of club tiles is named "stick" * all magical staves are of polearm length or longer (this is visible most on "worn" tiles) * on the other hand, unlike what this report says, shillelagh's tiles are quite distinct from short staff ones. The only resemblance is in worn versions, mostly because no other weapons are held this way. Floor/inventory tiles have nothing in common: short staff is abysmal, too ugly to live; shillelagh resembles other maces and staves (which all look like variants of the same!). This leads to a question: what the heck is the difference between various mace types and magical staves? You wield both in one hand and clobber folks with them. I'm quite tempted to move magical staves to M&F. This spells doom for the rest of the skill.

(0016049) mageykun (reporter) 2011-11-30 01:56	From a game perspective, I kind of think that makes one skill too useful. M&F is already good for demon whips and spiked clubs, giving the option to trade to a magic staff without having to train up a new skill seems too easy. From a weapon type reasoning perspective, I always thought as M&F as things you held at one end, with a lot of the weight at the other end, while a staff was something you held in the middle, near the center of gravity. Different kinds of levers, basically. It might further help to differentiate staffs from M&F if we made staffs two handed weapons for all races, instead of just the small ones, as I saw someone suggest in the tavern.

(0019042) neil (administrator) 2012-07-16 07:43	Devastator has had its own tile for a while now, closing.

(0019056) KiloByte (manager) 2012-07-16 12:33	Uhm, it had a tile since the very start. The problem is with the "staff" item: it is a club from any point of view other than the skill it uses. Short (per the reasoning why rods use M&F not Staves), looks like a club in tiles, is one thematically.

(0019278) KiloByte (manager) 2012-07-28 13:17	[Ghrmblah, damn Mantis, it's two-step reopening, and the inability to put a report into the base state...] Another case: the Sceptre of Torment is a mace, yet the Sceptre of Asmodeus a staff. The same name, and not only the sub-type but even weapon class doesn't match. Not sure what to do. My preference currently would be either renaming one of sceptres or changing its base type, then removing the short "staff" item (per the rod -> M&F reasoning) and using length as the distinction, this doesn't deal with artificers, though.

(0019284) ion_frigate (reporter) 2012-07-28 20:25	Sceptres can be short or long. There's no reason it has to be absolutely consistent in Crawl, when it's not in the real world. This isn't going to confuse anyone, since it's trivial to read the description of the artefact, which will say what weapon skill it falls under. As for staves, instead of flavouring them as being short, flavour them as being little more than a cut branch (make the tile longer but keep it irregular). A quarterstaff is a straight wooden pole, presumably made heartwood - such a weapon would handle more easily and have a greater weight than a raw branch, explaining the higher damage rating.

(0022749) mumra (developer) 2013-05-21 16:22	Does this need to stay open since short staffs are gone? I should note that staff (in reality, that is) is a drastically different fighting style to bashing something with a club, so it makes sense for there to be a distinct fighting school. As mageykun points out, it's down to how you hold the weapon. A club/mace has a handle at one end, this is what you hold, bash people with the much wider heavier end. Whereas a staff is uniform width all the way along, you can hold it in the middle and twirl it around, or hold it at both ends at once for two-handed fighting, this also makes it more defensive.

(0022776) KiloByte (manager) 2013-05-21 23:15	Most of the problem is gone, yeah, but something needs to be done at least to the two sceptres. Per the distinction, I'd rather grant the word to the M&F side, which leaves Sceptre of Asmodeus as the one in a need of a rename.

(0022789) mumra (developer) 2013-05-23 10:32	Sceptre genuinely can refer to either a mace or a staff depending on the length: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sceptre [^] (although judging from what I've seen staff seems to be the older usage). So I don't know if this absolutely needs changing, since the item descriptions clarify the type of item in any case. I've been hunting around for an alternate name and I haven't come up with one that sounds as good yet. "Sceptre of Asmodeus" has a really nice ring to it (better in my option than Sceptre of Torment) and it's perhaps a more iconic object what with being associated with such a major guaranteed unique. Could just rename it to "the +7, +6 mace 'Torment'". On a tangent, something linked to from that wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Was [^] -- I think that would make a nice unrand --

(0026706) PleasingFungus (administrator) 2014-07-08 22:46	This ticket has long outlived its usefulness. If someone wants to resolve the "two weapon types for sceptre" problem, fine, but there's no reason to keep this ticket open for that.

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2011-11-30 00:05	user1820	New Issue
2011-11-30 00:16	KiloByte	Note Added: 0016045
2011-11-30 00:51	KiloByte	Note Added: 0016046
2011-11-30 01:56	mageykun	Note Added: 0016049
2012-07-16 07:43	neil	Note Added: 0019042
2012-07-16 07:43	neil	Status	new => resolved
2012-07-16 07:43	neil	Fixed in Branch	=> 0.11 development branch
2012-07-16 07:43	neil	Resolution	open => no change required
2012-07-16 07:43	neil	Assigned To	=> neil
2012-07-16 12:33	KiloByte	Note Added: 0019056
2012-07-28 13:10	KiloByte	Assigned To	neil =>
2012-07-28 13:10	KiloByte	Status	resolved => feedback
2012-07-28 13:10	KiloByte	Resolution	no change required => reopened
2012-07-28 13:17	KiloByte	Note Added: 0019278
2012-07-28 13:17	KiloByte	Status	feedback => confirmed
2012-07-28 13:17	KiloByte	Resolution	reopened => open
2012-07-28 13:17	KiloByte	Summary	shillelaugh selects wrong skill => club/short staff confusion
2012-07-28 20:25	ion_frigate	Note Added: 0019284
2013-05-21 16:22	mumra	Note Added: 0022749
2013-05-21 23:15	KiloByte	Note Added: 0022776
2013-05-23 10:32	mumra	Note Added: 0022789
2014-07-08 22:46	PleasingFungus	Note Added: 0026706
2014-07-08 22:46	PleasingFungus	Status	confirmed => closed
2014-07-08 22:46	PleasingFungus	Resolution	open => done

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