0003726: lordsloth_entry_two_stooges entry seals off uniques

(0012130)
KiloByte (manager)
2011-04-04 23:34

At most this gives these two a minimally smaller chance to spawn. I don't see why this would be a problem.

(0012133)
TGW (reporter)
2011-04-04 23:47

Because uniques are interesting and sealing them off on D:1 for no reason removes that.

(0012134)
galehar (administrator)
2011-04-04 23:49

There's plenty more. Not every unique is generated in each game, so yes, as kilobyte said, it's just a slight chance reduction. Not a problem.

(0012137)
OG17 (reporter)
2011-04-05 00:12

Getting this vault guarantees that Psyche and Ijyb aren't going to meaningfully show up in your game. 100% isn't a "minimally smaller chance" or a "slight chance reduction," and uniques aren't furniture.

(0012141)
KiloByte (manager)
2011-04-05 09:32

Neither Ijyb nor Psyche are any meaningful threat, so I don't see anyone start-scumming for this rare vault. If it had Sigmund and Grinder, it would be a different story.

(0012154)
OG17 (reporter)
2011-04-05 18:30

Ijyb kills a ton of people and Psyche has interesting features but ignoring all that, if they're so meaningless that they're better used as props than as monsters, why are they in the game at all? None of this is right.

(0012158)
elliptic (developer)
2011-04-05 19:08

Can't the uniques just be replaced with humans with custom speech (I'm not sure whether this is actually possible in vaults, but it is in wizlabs so maybe...) or something? Shining eyes would also be amusing (they wouldn't be able to do anything).

(0012160)
XuaXua (reporter)
2011-04-05 20:37

Ijyb kills only if he has a wand of disintegration, and he's been pretty weak in trunk to my experiences. Psyche has the dagger of distortion, which is a valuable distortion-branded weapon.

If these two are accessible via a wand of digging or disintegration (I don't counter shatter as not everyone can access it), then I don't see why they can't be put behind glass till a player wants to release them.

(0012162)
elliptic (developer)
2011-04-05 22:24

Ijyb also kills people with lots of other wands, and sometimes he just melees people to death (he has quite a lot of HP for D:2, so he isn't a pushover there for a lot of characters despite usually having a weak attack). Only Sigmund, Terence, and Grinder have more kills than he does in 0.8.

Psyche only has distortion 25% of the time (usually chaos), but that's another good argument for removing her from the vault... it means people can startscum for a 25% chance of a distortion weapon should they so wish. This isn't how entry vaults should work.

(0012174)
due (developer)
2011-04-06 10:26

It should mean that you just won't run into Ijyb or Psyche, and any uniques who are considered for those levels will just have a higher chance of appearing. The overall chance should be similar or identical.

In practice, it's possible that the code won't *know* that Ijyb and Psyche have already been placed and will consider their maps to be allowed, place them, and due to the nature of monster placement, end up placing an empty map.

Regardless, if the vault is to stay, it needs to be tagged with the tags for Ijyb and Psyche, and uniq'd together so that placement of the entry vault with them in it precludes Ijyb and Psyche's vaults from being considered (indeed, the map chooser shouldn't even ponder them -- if all works as I think it should).

(0012204)
effo (reporter)
2011-04-07 13:34

I see a lot of excuses for not changing it, but I'm not seeing the rationale for making this entry vault in the first place. Monsters behind glass in entry vaults aren't really that interesting, and if this vault has specific uniques every time, it seems a little stale.

(0012206)
galehar (administrator)
2011-04-07 13:41

Let's replace them with orc priests ;)

(0012208)
XuaXua (reporter)
2011-04-07 16:25

+1

(0013940)
Kate (developer)
2011-07-21 20:11

Changed them to boring normal monsters (if anyone wants to make them humans with custom speech or any of the other suggested options, that'd be fine too).

Notes
(0012130) KiloByte (manager) 2011-04-04 23:34	At most this gives these two a minimally smaller chance to spawn. I don't see why this would be a problem.

(0012133) TGW (reporter) 2011-04-04 23:47	Because uniques are interesting and sealing them off on D:1 for no reason removes that.

(0012134) galehar (administrator) 2011-04-04 23:49	There's plenty more. Not every unique is generated in each game, so yes, as kilobyte said, it's just a slight chance reduction. Not a problem.

(0012137) OG17 (reporter) 2011-04-05 00:12	Getting this vault guarantees that Psyche and Ijyb aren't going to meaningfully show up in your game. 100% isn't a "minimally smaller chance" or a "slight chance reduction," and uniques aren't furniture.

(0012141) KiloByte (manager) 2011-04-05 09:32	Neither Ijyb nor Psyche are any meaningful threat, so I don't see anyone start-scumming for this rare vault. If it had Sigmund and Grinder, it would be a different story.

(0012154) OG17 (reporter) 2011-04-05 18:30	Ijyb kills a ton of people and Psyche has interesting features but ignoring all that, if they're so meaningless that they're better used as props than as monsters, why are they in the game at all? None of this is right.

(0012158) elliptic (developer) 2011-04-05 19:08	Can't the uniques just be replaced with humans with custom speech (I'm not sure whether this is actually possible in vaults, but it is in wizlabs so maybe...) or something? Shining eyes would also be amusing (they wouldn't be able to do anything).

(0012160) XuaXua (reporter) 2011-04-05 20:37	Ijyb kills only if he has a wand of disintegration, and he's been pretty weak in trunk to my experiences. Psyche has the dagger of distortion, which is a valuable distortion-branded weapon. If these two are accessible via a wand of digging or disintegration (I don't counter shatter as not everyone can access it), then I don't see why they can't be put behind glass till a player wants to release them.

(0012162) elliptic (developer) 2011-04-05 22:24	Ijyb also kills people with lots of other wands, and sometimes he just melees people to death (he has quite a lot of HP for D:2, so he isn't a pushover there for a lot of characters despite usually having a weak attack). Only Sigmund, Terence, and Grinder have more kills than he does in 0.8. Psyche only has distortion 25% of the time (usually chaos), but that's another good argument for removing her from the vault... it means people can startscum for a 25% chance of a distortion weapon should they so wish. This isn't how entry vaults should work.

(0012174) due (developer) 2011-04-06 10:26	It should mean that you just won't run into Ijyb or Psyche, and any uniques who are considered for those levels will just have a higher chance of appearing. The overall chance should be similar or identical. In practice, it's possible that the code won't know that Ijyb and Psyche have already been placed and will consider their maps to be allowed, place them, and due to the nature of monster placement, end up placing an empty map. Regardless, if the vault is to stay, it needs to be tagged with the tags for Ijyb and Psyche, and uniq'd together so that placement of the entry vault with them in it precludes Ijyb and Psyche's vaults from being considered (indeed, the map chooser shouldn't even ponder them -- if all works as I think it should).

(0012204) effo (reporter) 2011-04-07 13:34	I see a lot of excuses for not changing it, but I'm not seeing the rationale for making this entry vault in the first place. Monsters behind glass in entry vaults aren't really that interesting, and if this vault has specific uniques every time, it seems a little stale.

(0012206) galehar (administrator) 2011-04-07 13:41	Let's replace them with orc priests ;)

(0012208) XuaXua (reporter) 2011-04-07 16:25	+1

(0013940) Kate (developer) 2011-07-21 20:11	Changed them to boring normal monsters (if anyone wants to make them humans with custom speech or any of the other suggested options, that'd be fine too).

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2011-04-04 23:30	OG17	New Issue
2011-04-04 23:34	KiloByte	Note Added: 0012130
2011-04-04 23:47	TGW	Note Added: 0012133
2011-04-04 23:49	galehar	Note Added: 0012134
2011-04-05 00:12	OG17	Note Added: 0012137
2011-04-05 09:32	KiloByte	Note Added: 0012141
2011-04-05 18:30	OG17	Note Added: 0012154
2011-04-05 19:08	elliptic	Note Added: 0012158
2011-04-05 20:37	XuaXua	Note Added: 0012160
2011-04-05 22:24	elliptic	Note Added: 0012162
2011-04-06 10:26	due	Note Added: 0012174
2011-04-07 13:34	effo	Note Added: 0012204
2011-04-07 13:41	galehar	Note Added: 0012206
2011-04-07 16:25	XuaXua	Note Added: 0012208
2011-07-21 20:11	Kate	Note Added: 0013940
2011-07-21 20:11	Kate	Status	new => resolved
2011-07-21 20:11	Kate	Fixed in Branch	=> 0.9 development branch
2011-07-21 20:11	Kate	Resolution	open => done
2011-07-21 20:11	Kate	Assigned To	=> Kate

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