0002179: very early game nerf - Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup Tracker

Notes
(0006811) xyblor (reporter) 2010-08-03 06:18	I support the 1 point damage nerf, but not the hp boost. I mostly like the challenge of the very early game. I even enjoy the humiliation of pillar dancing.

(0006812) MrMisterMonkey (reporter) 2010-08-03 06:40	A slight boost to regen rate would be enough to lessen the annoyance of pillar dancing, though it would also encourage it, so I'm not sure how well that'd work out.

(0006822) coolio (reporter) 2010-08-03 12:20	Yeah, a pack of gnolls on D:1 is basically game over unless you've already explored most of it or are a troll berserker. The amount of hobgoblins on D:1 is rather high, too.

(0006828) 256 (reporter) 2010-08-03 16:58	I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that gnolls are no longer going to generate in packs on dlvl1, so that's fine. And I don't really think that there is any problem with hobgoblins or kobolds. They're tougher, but they're not that tough. Pretty much any character that starts with fighting and a weapon skill can go toe to toe with unarmed hobgoblins all day. Armed hobgoblins are obviously more of a threat, but threats are good. Any character can pick up a handful of +0 darts or even stones and get a single hobgoblin down to at least half health as it approaches. And if nothing else, there's always running away. I think that crawl needs the occasional threat that is too much to handle. Discretion is the better part of valour and all that. Dlvl2 Sigmund is a feature, not a bug. Packs of jackals are tougher because you can't run from them, but even so, if you can get to a corridor, most characters (even ones with relatively limited early offensive power) can handle them one at a time. Early game cruelty is a big part of the roguelike charm. And even so, most characters are quite survivable. I think I'd put most dlvl1-3 deaths up to impatience or inexperience rather than bad luck. I certainly die much more often on dlvl1-3 than on dlvl 7-9, but I freely admit that it's because I'm less attached to a brand new character, so I take more risks. That's fine, but it's not a behaviour that needs to be coddled to. If any early game monsters are unreasonable, I'd have to say it's snakes. It's not terribly uncommon for a snake to round a corner on dlvl2 or even dlvl1 and for there be no stairs or anything for the character to retreat to faster than the snake can catch up. And the sad truth is that a lvl1 character without a potion of healing or healwounds will succumb to poison from Max HP rather often. I'd say that any creature that can poison before a character can be expected to have potions of healing should be no faster than a human. But whatever, it's not that big a deal.

(0006830) OG17 (reporter) 2010-08-03 18:00	Survivability goes up quite a bit when players actually deign to use the throwable items that are lying around.

(0006834) TGW (reporter) 2010-08-03 19:06 edited on: 2010-08-03 19:07	D:2 Sigmund is deadly, but he's also rare, and thus distinctly not what I'm talking about. Early snakes are not that common either. Hobgoblins and kobolds, on the other hand, have far more kills than any other monster in the entire game and populate D:1 thickly. I'm not sure how you can deny there's a problem, whether it's that the early game is too hard or that it requires a disproportionate amount of time and effort to survive.

(0006836) OG17 (reporter) 2010-08-03 19:25	The thing is, if you die that early, you've spent, what, maybe a couple of minutes? Start another game; I don't think crawl needs to be designed to be streaking-friendly.

(0006852) serg271 (reporter) 2010-08-04 12:24	@OG17 I wouldn't object if it would be inevitable death, but the problem is that almost all of those deaths could be avoided by long and tedious pillar dancing. So player forced to either start scamming or tedious task. Which is definitely against DCSS ideology.

(0006854) minmay (reporter) 2010-08-04 17:31	I almost never die to hobgoblins or kobolds. When I do it's usually because they got a ridiculous weapon brand like distortion or electrocution. I do not generally have difficulty with D:1 gnolls; they're normal speed, so I can just run away to D:2 (unless I'm a naga, but in that case I can probably just poison them all). Examining my scores list, the leading causes of pre-Temple death are snakes and giant geckos - monsters that are faster than normal speed. Granted, I rarely play the more incompetent races like Demigods, but honestly, I really like the early game as it is. If survival weren't difficult it wouldn't be a roguelike.

(0006856) Timbermaw (reporter) 2010-08-04 19:08 edited on: 2010-08-04 19:11	Me, on the other hand, have died FAR less to gnolls and d:1 stuff after the 0.7 update. Maybe i´m getting better. There's also lots of new people playing crawl now; no wonder early deaths are happening.

(0006857) dpeg (administrator) 2010-08-04 22:26	It is okay to have an eye on that (in particular, I think the FR is absolutely acceptable) but it seems there isn't a big problem. We should evaluate early game lethality from time to time, as TGW has done. Closing.

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2010-08-03 05:06	TGW	New Issue
2010-08-03 06:18	xyblor	Note Added: 0006811
2010-08-03 06:40	MrMisterMonkey	Note Added: 0006812
2010-08-03 12:20	coolio	Note Added: 0006822
2010-08-03 16:58	256	Note Added: 0006828
2010-08-03 18:00	OG17	Note Added: 0006830
2010-08-03 19:06	TGW	Note Added: 0006834
2010-08-03 19:07	TGW	Note Edited: 0006834
2010-08-03 19:07	TGW	Note Edited: 0006834
2010-08-03 19:25	OG17	Note Added: 0006836
2010-08-04 12:24	serg271	Note Added: 0006852
2010-08-04 17:31	minmay	Note Added: 0006854
2010-08-04 19:08	Timbermaw	Note Added: 0006856
2010-08-04 19:11	Timbermaw	Note Edited: 0006856
2010-08-04 22:26	dpeg	Note Added: 0006857
2010-08-04 22:26	dpeg	Status	new => closed
2010-08-04 22:26	dpeg	Resolution	open => no change required
2010-08-04 22:26	dpeg	Fixed in Branch	=> 0.8 development branch

Relationships