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ID Category Severity Reproducibility Date Submitted Last Update
0000162 [DCSS] FR: Gameplay Balancing tweak always 2009-12-11 22:13 2013-03-19 19:55
Reporter b0rsuk View Status public  
Assigned To mumra
Priority normal Resolution no change required  
Status resolved   Product Branch 0.6 ancient branch
Summary 0000162: Distraction stabs still not useful
Description This concerns effectiveness of distraction stab before and after the change made below (read comments).

http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=2902035&group_id=143991&atid=757516 [^]

Before the change, the chance of succesful stab on a non-sleeping non-immobilized was (Dex+Skill)/155. The chance was supposedly increased by 50%, while damage was reduced by 50%. While I think it was a step in right direction, from playtesting I can say it's a drop in the bucket. Good change, but not nearly enough.

The only thing that diffrentiates distraction stab from confusion stab is damage dealt, not chance. This is, however, not how it actually *plays*.

Monsters are confused for multiple consecutive turns. Additionally, confusion usually occurs because of player action like a spell or wand. Confused monsters are easy targets for stabs, and can be stabbed repeatedly. Over a course of several turns, confusion stabs become *reliable and predictable*.

This is not at all the case with distraction stabs. They seem to occur in one of three cases:
- monster attacks creature other than player. This happens, at best, twice in a row. Usually it's once per several turns.
- monster is hit by creature other than player. This only happens from time to time, once per several turns. Very tough monsters like skeletal dragons seem to be less distracted by summoned scorpions. This suggests that damage may have to be dealt for a monster to be distracted.
- monster is wandering around, and player attempts to stab it. In such cases there's usually only one chance per combat.
- fourth case is technically a 'tier 2' stab, because monster is running away. If monster is badly hurt and especially when player has a fast weapon, it will sometimes turn its back on player but remain on adjacent square. Technically, it's not a distraction stab, but it plays like one: an opportunity that presents itself and can't be easily repeated.

Either way, opportunities for distraction stabbing are several times less common. So with the same chance for a stab being successful, you get several times less chances to stab and increase your skill. This is a shame, because I think distraction stabs are tactically much more interesting than confusion stabs. Confusion stabs are always performed on targets which can barely fight back. But combat distraction occurs only once per several turns, and player has to withstand not only melee attacks, but also spells and other abilities. HP runs out, so do friendly zombies, and summons.

I think confusion stabs are mostly ok. It often takes several tries to stab a monster to death, but player can afford that because it lasts multiple turns. Mephitic Cloud being a very inexpensive spell for its efect is separate issue. But distraction stabs are nowhere reliable enough to become a valid strategy rather than a gimmick. A kobold with 30 EV, 20 Stabbing and 28 Dexterity, with infinite supply of friendly scorpions can barely stab a skeletal dragon to death with a dagger. It's a long battle, and would be suicidal against a lich or any summoner.

=================
 I think it should be quite opposite - rare stab opportunities (4 mentioned above) should have *much higher* chance of working than confusion stabs. Stabbing without stealth shouldn't be semi-useful for a highly specialised character with 70 aptitude, best stabbing weapon and very high Dex. Stabbing should be a valid combat tactic and valuable investment, not a synonym of Stealth! Summoners would be given a choice to either settle difficult encounters with high-level spells, or with personal intervention.

Alternatively, distraction stabs could be made more like confusion stabs - I mean, *oppurtunities* could be made much more common, for example each turn a monster is attacked by other monster or attacks another monster, even if no damage is dealt and player is slow. I don't think this would be good, because current distraction stabs make fights more tense. It's a pity they rarely work. Admittedly, when they do, results tend to be spectacular.
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-  Notes
(0002607)
Vandal (updater)
2010-02-16 08:20

 Please come into IRC some time :) I'm almost always available there to talk and I bet we could come up with some really great things to do with Weapons and Stabbing for 0.7.
(0002638)
Timbermaw (reporter)
2010-02-17 13:24

 I agree with this;
In my opinion, all forms of stabbing that are 100% result of a player action (ie: paralyzing, sleeping, confusing) should be toned down, and stabs that rely on chance should be buffed.
(0002664)
Twinge (updater)
2010-02-17 19:26

 I don't really think confusion/etc. stabs really need to be toned down much if at all, but the idea to make distraction stabs more useful seems very sound - b0rsuk lays down a convincing argument. The idea of stabbing being more useful without stealth is also a very appealing one - the skills shouldn't be as tied together as they are now. Probably a good 0.7 target item.
(0003003)
b0rsuk (updater)
2010-02-25 05:53

 Vandal:

Great things don't come out of IRC. Putting ideas on IRC is throwing them away. In written form they stay there and can be commented on by other people. I prefer to keep the process more transparent.

Twinge:

In short, there's redundancy. First, _opportunities_ for distraction stabs are much less common. Second, the stabs are less effective even with an opportunity (harder to perform, weaker).

It's a bit similar to how hostile Enchantments work. Some of the more basic ones have lower power cap, meaning they're less likely to work. And even if they work, the effect is generally weaker than that of a more high level enchantment.
(0003004)
Twinge (updater)
2010-02-25 06:47

 Nod, though it does depend on the character. Distraction stabs aren't *too* uncommon if you have a lot of allies though, as a summoner or HOPr or whatever, so they shouldn't be made amazingly strong, but they are clearly too weak now.


As for IRC - it's is a good place to brainstorm a lot of ideas IMO. Everything I've made a patch for has first been talked about on IRC a bit, and sometimes just went straight from IRC discussion -> patch (for more complex stuff I did a wiki page first or such). It's not always the best medium, but it has been a great place to discuss ideas and get feedback quickly in my experience. Dunno what bad experience you may have had in the past, but it doesn't at all match my experience.
(0007283)
b0rsuk (updater)
2010-08-17 11:23

 I think any attack on a distracted creature should train Stabbing, even if stab is unsuccessful. Otherwise it's just a gimmick, with no strategic importance. You just can't train it without confusion, paralysis, or stealth.

I currently have a clevel13 HoSu. I wear heavy armour and seek every opportunity to stab enemies. My Stabbing skill is at 2.
(0021697)
mumra (developer)
2013-03-19 19:55

 There is a lengthy discussion of this topic on the devwiki which even links to this issue:
https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:combat:stabbing [^]

So I'm closing this issue as the discussion is unresolved and no patches have been created.

- Issue History
Date Modified Username Field Change
2009-12-11 22:13 b0rsuk New Issue
2009-12-11 22:17 b0rsuk Issue Monitored: b0rsuk
2010-02-16 08:20 Vandal Note Added: 0002607
2010-02-17 13:24 Timbermaw Note Added: 0002638
2010-02-17 19:26 Twinge Note Added: 0002664
2010-02-25 05:53 b0rsuk Note Added: 0003003
2010-02-25 06:47 Twinge Note Added: 0003004
2010-08-17 11:23 b0rsuk Note Added: 0007283
2013-03-19 19:55 mumra Note Added: 0021697
2013-03-19 19:55 mumra Status new => resolved
2013-03-19 19:55 mumra Resolution open => no change required
2013-03-19 19:55 mumra Assigned To => mumra

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