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ID Category Severity Reproducibility Date Submitted Last Update
0003046 [DCSS] Implementables feature N/A 2010-12-26 01:54 2021-04-02 21:13
Reporter dpeg View Status public  
Assigned To ebering
Priority normal Resolution suspended Local or Remote
Status resolved   Operating System
Projection none   Console or Tiles
ETA none Fixed in Branch Product Branch 0.9 ancient branch
  Product Version
Summary 0003046: Demigods: abstract worshippers
Description This is a call for help with the Demigod species.

The race is defined by conduct (no god) vs good attributes (health, magic, stats). This may make for good balance (the species benefits from our moves to make stats matter more) but an empty god axis means less fun (for some or many or perhaps even most players). There are a number of proposals for how to make Demigods more godly, often involving abilities etc. However, this approach is already used for Demonspawns (and a bit for Draconians), and should be kept at that. So here is something else. For details see https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:species:demigod&s[]=demigod#abstract_worshippers [^]
and for some additional explanation read on.

(1) Basic assumption: The DG being of vaguely divine origin, certain mortals may start to worship him/her, out of superstition, boredom, depression, all of the above, or something else. Whatever the reason, the DG doing (most probably dirty) deeds of great renown will strengthen the belief and possibly attract further followers. This will not make the DG in any way more capable...
[On a meta-level, this is a parable on how religions work. If you're offended, don't read on.]

(2) ...but it will raise the suspicion of the gods. Think of the pantheon like a divine establishment whose members are fighting over a scarce resource: followers. Despite these struggles, all gods agree on keeping newcomers out. Of course, the gods could probably just eradicate the DG, but that'd look brutish, and it might make mortals wonder why deities have to purge self-proclaimed prophets etc. Therefore, the gods try to solve the matter more elegantly by having pious worshippers take on the DG. (You'd also think that the successful god would boast loudly at the gods' dinner parties.)

(3) Gameplay-wise, this means that the DG uses "piety" to indicate renown, i.e. how many worshippers there are (on a scale like "none", "scattered", "some", "many" etc., no actual numbers shown). This goes up when the player picks up runes, or kills uniques. From time to time, gods will send minions to attack the DG (these are like pseudo-uniques: name, individual equipment, access to (some) god powers). We can use conducts to have gods with values highly differing from those of the DG go first. If the player defeats the minion, piety goes up some more and she gains items and xp. If the player evades the battle (the minions are temporary), then nothing happens except that piety goes down.

(4) Analysis: Flavour should be served by seeing your followers come (and sometimes desert). Instead of being just a godless guy with high stats you will know that people believe in you etc. Gameplay-wise, very little changes, especially if you keep piety low by evading battles. However, you can get good items (armour, weapons, books, etc. -- depending on the god whose minion you fought) if you don't.
Steps To Reproduce
Additional Information
Tags No tags attached.
Attached Files ? file icon Dg-1-Demigods-GOD_SELF-messages-conducts-special-cases.patch [^] (19,790 bytes) 2011-09-10 03:36 [Show Content]
? file icon Dg-2-Really-fix-prayer-messages-tweak-Demigod-religion-sc.patch [^] (9,123 bytes) 2011-09-10 07:37 [Show Content]

- Relationships

-  Notes
(0009910)
ekolis (reporter)
2010-12-26 16:39

Neat idea... you ever played Illwinter's "Dominions" series, by chance? ;)

One thing I always wondered about demigods is "why do they learn skills so slowly?" Admittedly -1 for all skills is not THAT much of a penalty... but their stats aren't THAT high either compared to humans, and not being able to follow a god is a rather noticeable penalty as is...
(0009938)
dpeg (administrator)
2010-12-27 10:37

No, never played that.

-1 is not a bad aptitude, just subpar. They don't just get better Str/Dex/Int, but also HP/MP and MR.

Furthermore, this idea is about something apart from numbers... something thematic and visible.
(0010001)
angrykoopa (reporter)
2010-12-29 03:06

+1

Worshippers: would they be randomly generated?
(0010004)
jpeg (manager)
2010-12-29 08:09

As far as I know, you're never going to meet any of your worshippers. We're talking about surface people here who've only heard of your heroics by way of word-of-mouth.

That said, it would be funny if you were to occasionally encounter monsters that had heard of you (special god flag) and used corresponding speech.
(0010005)
angrykoopa (reporter)
2010-12-29 08:15

Oh I meant the worshippers the other gods send to take you out.
(0010011)
dpeg (administrator)
2010-12-29 14:49

The minions you (can) fight against should be randomised, yes. Ideally, we could define the chances etc. with the des or lua syntax but that's a secondary concern.

Toughness of minions should depend on (a) player piety and (b) number of minions already fought (or killed?) from that god.

Occasionally meeting a minion to yourself would be cute. That's not urgent but nice flavour.
(0010280)
RangerC (reporter)
2011-01-07 07:56

If no one else is interested in this, I'll take this on. I'll post some ideas about how it could be implemented on the Demigod wiki page this weekend.
(0010343)
Gilou (reporter)
2011-01-10 09:49

And why wouldn't monsters have a chance to start worshipping you as they meet you or even fight you, and start following you and fight for you ?
(0010344)
due (developer)
2011-01-10 09:55

Gilou: Because permanent allies are extremely difficult to balance. This is why pacified monsters (Ely) turn neutral. Compare with a Beogh worshiper's orc followers.
(0010348)
TGW (reporter)
2011-01-10 20:42

Gilou: If the monsters aren't willing to give the Orb up to a representative of an actual member of the pantheon, why would they join some random demigod?
(0010392)
evktalo (administrator)
2011-01-11 19:05

cheers RangerC!

--Eino
(0013671)
dpeg (administrator)
2011-07-04 01:49

Hopefully RagnerC has not been eaten by a grue.

I think the item is open again. If you want to have a go at it, please drop your name right here. (RangerC, the same goes for you, in case we missed each other.)

Discussion of the content/scope is welcome and can be conducted on the wiki page and/or ##crawl-dev but not here, please. (This thread is for organisational purposes and should not be cluttered by technical discussion.)
(0014604)
mumra (developer)
2011-09-10 00:10

I've started having a go at this; to begin with, adding a GOD_SELF to represent the player's "piety", appropriately tweaking messages, and tracking the player's conducts.

When it comes to a) generating minions to challenge the player, and b) tracking all gods' conducts for wrath, there's potentially a *huge* amount that could be done - so if anyone else wants to help there's definitely room; let me know, I can give commit access on a public clone for collaboration.
(0014606)
mumra (developer)
2011-09-10 03:39

First patch; establishes Demigod's religion as GOD_SELF, tracking all Demigod conducts (except for killing/running away from minions), customising messages in (most) relevant places, using wrath to gauge displeasure of other gods. Currently you'll receive wrath effects as soon as you start incurring wrath (by earning piety). Next stage is to special case that and start dispatching minions.
(0014607)
mumra (developer)
2011-09-10 07:40

Second patch; fix prayer and death piety messages, tweak Demigod religion screen, prevent normal wrath effects, stubs for minion creation, starting piety.
(0014638)
mumra (developer)
2011-09-13 23:13

Made a lot of progress; I've got a cunning system for generating the minions (database/monbuild.txt).

The latest version is on a branch at:
https://gitorious.org/~mumra/crawl/mumra-crawl-2/commits/demigods [^]

Currently it's in proof-of-concept status; the minion definitions need a lot of work, I don't have naming set up for everything, and there are a couple of to-dos - but it's working pretty well. If anyone wants to test it, I've added a wizard command (%Ctrl-M) for spawning minions. Feedback welcome!
(0017871)
nubinia (reporter)
2012-04-25 13:30

How's it going? Looking good..

A small extra would be to change "You are rather mundane" to "You are rather divine" :)
(0034232)
ebering (developer)
2021-04-02 21:13

After 12 years and no implementation crawl is a somewhat different game and Dg have found longevity in their basic no god vs big stats conduct.

Closing this, but not before saying that the concept might make for an interesting alternative piety system to "piety on kills".

- Issue History
Date Modified Username Field Change
2010-12-26 01:54 dpeg New Issue
2010-12-26 16:39 ekolis Note Added: 0009910
2010-12-27 10:37 dpeg Note Added: 0009938
2010-12-29 03:06 angrykoopa Note Added: 0010001
2010-12-29 08:09 jpeg Note Added: 0010004
2010-12-29 08:15 angrykoopa Note Added: 0010005
2010-12-29 14:49 dpeg Note Added: 0010011
2011-01-07 07:56 RangerC Note Added: 0010280
2011-01-10 09:49 Gilou Note Added: 0010343
2011-01-10 09:55 due Note Added: 0010344
2011-01-10 20:42 TGW Note Added: 0010348
2011-01-11 19:05 evktalo Note Added: 0010392
2011-07-04 01:49 dpeg Note Added: 0013671
2011-09-10 00:10 mumra Note Added: 0014604
2011-09-10 03:36 mumra File Added: Dg-1-Demigods-GOD_SELF-messages-conducts-special-cases.patch
2011-09-10 03:39 mumra Note Added: 0014606
2011-09-10 07:37 mumra File Added: Dg-2-Really-fix-prayer-messages-tweak-Demigod-religion-sc.patch
2011-09-10 07:40 mumra Note Added: 0014607
2011-09-13 23:13 mumra Note Added: 0014638
2012-04-25 13:30 nubinia Note Added: 0017871
2021-04-02 21:13 ebering Note Added: 0034232
2021-04-02 21:13 ebering Status new => resolved
2021-04-02 21:13 ebering Resolution open => suspended
2021-04-02 21:13 ebering Assigned To => ebering


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