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ID Category Severity Reproducibility Date Submitted Last Update
0002103 [DCSS] FR: Gameplay Balancing feature N/A 2010-07-27 19:57 2011-03-31 23:11
Reporter nrook View Status public  
Assigned To galehar
Priority normal Resolution done  
Status resolved   Product Branch 0.7 ancient branch
Summary 0002103: Give reavers their own book (not book of conjurations)
Description Currently, reavers are a very boring class, being just conjurers with a little more ability in melee. They are death knights, but with conjuration instead of necromancy.

Most of the spells in either book of conjuration have little synergy with melee combat. The fire book contains Conjure Flame, which is helpful for reavers because they have no objection sustaining close combat with an enemy to keep them in the flame, but the rest of its spells are just generic damage spells. The ice book is better: static discharge requires close range (but is bad), and mephitic cloud is a useful utility spell. Freezing cloud could also be helpful, though it is likely too hard to cast for a hybrid.

Because of this, reavers aren't going to want to start as conjurers and develop weapon skills independently; unlike necromantic hybrids (for whom the Book of Necromancy is great), they probably want their own book. Reavers are going to want utility spells like conjure flame and mephitic cloud, and damage-over-time spells like sticky flame or venom bolt. They want the latter because they are tougher, and thus don't mind enemies hanging around longer as long as they die. Reavers don't want a book of conjurations, they want a new book along these lines:

The Gladiator's Guide to Conjurations
- Magic Dart
- Throw Flame
- Conjure Flame
- Mephitic Cloud
- Sticky Flame
- Venom Bolt

Some sort of ice/air variant might also work; reavers like air conjurations because they can stay in melee to set up good bounces.
Additional Information
Tags No tags attached.
Attached Files

- Relationships
related to 0002111resolvedgalehar Remove Reavers 

-  Notes
(0006621)
OG17 (reporter)
2010-07-27 20:08

The actual solution is to get rid of reavers, also that book is ridiculous.
(0006622)
minmay (reporter)
2010-07-27 20:38

Removing reavers, conveniently, would put the total number of backgrounds at 27!
(0006645)
AStranger (reporter)
2010-07-28 12:30

If there was a vote to get rid of reavers, I'd vote to get rid of conjurers instead. Conjurers are just another class that starts with mage-esque stats and skills, the only difference from most other spellcasters being the spellbook choice. At least reavers differ from other spellcasters with having different stats and starting skills.
(0006648)
Lagus (reporter)
2010-07-28 14:16

Disagree with removing conjurers. Straight-conjuration is a well-defined role, reaver isn't.
(0006649)
xyblor (reporter)
2010-07-28 14:31
edited on: 2010-07-28 14:32

Here's the FR for removing Reavers: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2111 [^]

Here's the brainstorm page for caster jobs: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:job:magic_jobs_and_starting_books [^]

(0006673)
xyblor (reporter)
2010-07-29 01:52
edited on: 2010-07-29 02:03

In IRC, N78291 proposed the following for a Reaver(ice/air) book:
- Shock (AE)
- Freezing Aura (Cr)
- Ozocubu's Armour (IE)
- Static Discharge (IE)
- Condensation Shield
- Freezing Cloud (IE)

(0006677)
xyblor (reporter)
2010-07-29 06:03

This is what I would do:

- Shock (AE)
- Tukima's Vorpal Blade
- Corpse Rot
- Ozocubu's Armour (IE)
- Condensation Shield
- Poisonous Cloud

now it's only sharing two spells with other starting books
(0006679)
serg271 (reporter)
2010-07-29 08:37

I'm in favor of removing reavers. DCSS already have natural fighter-mages - crusaders, enchanters and transmuters. IMHO reavers is an unfortunate attempt on much discredited tank mage template.
(0006740)
xyblor (reporter)
2010-07-30 15:26

Maybe the best hope for a reaver book is to include mostly spells that help increase melee effectiveness but aren't in the crusader book: tukima's vorpal blade, maxwell's silver hammer, lethal infusion, stoneskin, ozocubu's armour, condensation shield, phase shift. It's probably okay to include a minimal number of spells from war chants and maybe a few conjurations. So it's no longer a conj/melee hybrid, just a crusader variant.
(0006741)
KiloByte (manager)
2010-07-30 15:44

xyblor: All of those spells you mentioned are enchantments. That, while kind of interesting due to a different set of spells, would make them quite redundant with enchanters -- who are hybrids, lacking ways to deal direct damage.

Reavers have a distinct, quite different playstyle. An enchanter will boost himself or curse his enemies. A conjurer will zap with spells, including casting point-blank and panicking when face-to-face with an enemy with no mana. A meleer will spend his turns moving towards the enemy to whack it with an axe. A reaver, though, will stand in place, dealing direct damage to wear down the enemy's hp while it walks to you, then finishing down the weakened foe with that axe.

In other words, a magical hunter.
(0006743)
xyblor (reporter)
2010-07-30 17:53

There is a playstyle called "reaver" based on the combination of melee and conjuring, but there is no place for it as a background. The only way to save reaver is to come up with a completely new book that doesn't overlap with existing books, and call that the reaver book, even though it doesn't match the old definition of reaving.

I'm not saying we really need a background called reaver, but it would be possible to make one, since there are a bunch of spells that aren't already in other starting books.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think we should just remove Re, and St too while we're at it.
(0006745)
dolorous (updater)
2010-07-30 18:51

KiloByte:
> In other words, a magical hunter.

In a sense, isn't that niche already filled by arcane marksmen?
(0006747)
OG17 (reporter)
2010-07-30 21:01

How does "start with zapping and finish with an axe" merit a unique class? Everyone can start swinging an axe - this is one of crawl's basic defining features. And axes are all over the place, as is starting armor.
(0006748)
KiloByte (manager)
2010-07-30 22:03

dolorous: uhm, arcane marksmen use ranged weaponry, not offensive spells. They're just hunters with enchantments but weaker gear.
(0009020)
lampshade (reporter)
2010-10-17 17:58

Conjuration and melee simply don't hybrid well together. You're better off just going either pure melee (at least until you get Enchantments) or pure conjurations when the choice is presented.

The only thing to make up for Reavers is to give them a new spellbook that contains short-ranged spells that compliment their melee aptitudes.
(0011986)
galehar (administrator)
2011-03-31 23:11

As jpeg said, reavers has been removed. And if they make it back in, it will be with a new spellbook (which is the source of the issue here).

- Issue History
Date Modified Username Field Change
2010-07-27 19:57 nrook New Issue
2010-07-27 20:08 OG17 Note Added: 0006621
2010-07-27 20:38 minmay Note Added: 0006622
2010-07-28 12:30 AStranger Note Added: 0006645
2010-07-28 14:16 Lagus Note Added: 0006648
2010-07-28 14:31 xyblor Note Added: 0006649
2010-07-28 14:32 xyblor Note Edited: 0006649
2010-07-29 01:52 xyblor Note Added: 0006673
2010-07-29 02:03 xyblor Note Edited: 0006673
2010-07-29 06:03 xyblor Note Added: 0006677
2010-07-29 08:37 serg271 Note Added: 0006679
2010-07-30 15:26 xyblor Note Added: 0006740
2010-07-30 15:44 KiloByte Note Added: 0006741
2010-07-30 17:53 xyblor Note Added: 0006743
2010-07-30 18:51 dolorous Note Added: 0006745
2010-07-30 21:01 OG17 Note Added: 0006747
2010-07-30 22:03 KiloByte Note Added: 0006748
2010-10-17 17:58 lampshade Note Added: 0009020
2011-03-31 22:19 jpeg Relationship added related to 0002111
2011-03-31 23:11 galehar Note Added: 0011986
2011-03-31 23:11 galehar Status new => resolved
2011-03-31 23:11 galehar Fixed in Branch => 0.8 development branch
2011-03-31 23:11 galehar Resolution open => done
2011-03-31 23:11 galehar Assigned To => galehar


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